@jeremiah I wonder if anyone will regret that? Probably not. Less pensions to pay.

@PakkonenCT they're still cops, still getting pensions. Buffalo now has no ERT and depends on the sheriff and state cops to make up the difference.

@jeremiah hurrah. You'd think a suspension would be considered light. Not like they fired em.

I guess police should be able to dispense arbitrary violence at any scale they determine on the populace right? :p


@PakkonenCT It's like having a professional brute squad, then the brute squad brutes, then someone suspends two of them, and, in a surprising act of worthy of leftish union martyrs... they refuse to brute.

I'm not going to judge the particular case, the optics are bad. But I have a certain amont of sympathy for people in the position of, "you hired us to do this, we did it, then you sacrificed us in the court of public opinion. fight your own battles, dicks."

@jeremiah I don't disagree with the conclusion. The problem is having a dumb brute squad in the first place.

They could have just taken the dude into custody, grabbed him rather than shoving like they do with the next sign waving crank.

@PakkonenCT In this case, I don't think the brute squad's existence is the brute squad's fault. The brute squad gets brute squad pay or some other distinction (ERT) for precisely this reason.

What would be best is if unelected officials were put in steam-powered spanking machines for every infraction, big and small, of their underlings. Double-time if they try to blame an underling.

As close as we get to utopia relative to government and force: 72 hours, tops. :-)

Let me get this straight: The over-dicks hired the uber-dicks to be royal dicks to everyone else for them so the over-dicks don't have to get their own dicks dirty, but the uber-dicks thought the over-dicks wouldn't dick them over in a pinch?

At some point you have to say they're responsible for picking their own bedfellows. You just can't feel too sorry for Lando, y'know?


@incognitum @PakkonenCT If you start with the premise that riots are bad, being on the riot squad is neutral or good.

If one of them had not knocked down a guy who had no business being in the way, there'd be no conversation and implicit referendum on the other 57 officers who also presumably adhere to the basic premise that riots are not good.

Lando knew who he was dealing with, he had a city to look after, and no choice: "I had no choice. They arrived right before you did. I'm sorry."


Starting from that premise is kinda jumping in in the middle though. We don't usually look back at Kristallnacht and give the germans a pat on the back for ending the rioting. Being good is more than being against a bad thing, you must actually be *good*... which rarely coincides with being a shocktrooper in a police state.

@incognitum @PakkonenCT
> Kirstallnacht, shocktrooper

You're over-egging the pudding a bit, and in the process, make a metaphor that doesn't seem adequate to the point you're trying to make...

... unless it's purely that cops are evil goons unless entire units (or is it all police everywhere?) are held to standards that... forgive me, who else do we cooperative hold to your standards for police here (who have the reasonable opportunity to fail to meet that standard) ?

@jeremiah @incognitum

revolutions don't need a reasonability standard - they are past that hurdle.

@PakkonenCT @incognitum Revolutions don't, but the state still does, especially if it recognizes each individual as an individual -- the same way we might separate the actions of one cop from an entire unit.

But that would spoil the fun of name-calling and self-righteousness on an industrial scale, requiring specific analysis and reasoning, or at least, separating it from class-based reasoning.

@PakkonenCT @incognitum i do wonder... with all of the armchair anarchists tooting valiantly on behalf of the revolution... who's out there to make the revolution? Are we meant to be inspired by their fresh, thoughtful, and original ideas to become this revolution?

@jeremiah @incognitum I am a potato. I am become vodak lord of the spirits

@jeremiah @incognitum I'm not actually drinking... that's for tomorrow night. I'm reading up on my mountain building eras. Because I still have a dream of mining valuable metals out of my state.

@jeremiah @incognitum more to the point - the only ones out there rioting are the leftists. As for the right-ish anarchists they are too busy trying not to be painted as white supremacists while left wingers actually burn down black businesses.

@PakkonenCT @incognitum I was just thinking about all of the words written about utopias and revolutions and "only if people would"... with that much energy and effort, someone could probably build a pretty convincing demo, you know, put those ideas into practice and see some organic results that would convince the rest of the apes to join the revolution.

Or you could toot about the evil goonerment!

@jeremiah @incognitum @PakkonenCT the National Socialist Party had to make things look like they were the solution. The difference here is that the Republicans aren't Nazis and the leftists are actually the ones causing this problem. I'm not saying the GOP is the solution but I am saying Democrats are the problem.

@jeremiah @incognitum @PakkonenCT
Having experience on both sides, my opinion is that there should be acknowledgement of the officer following his training & compassion should be demonstrated toward the elderly man by the department offering to help with excess medical costs.

It may make it harder to reject demands for other injuries but would go a long way to say, "police have to do their tough job, but we have a heart & recognize when things go sour."

@phicyclist @incognitum @PakkonenCT On the level of heart and fairness, that seems reasonable.

Establishing a standard where the brute squad apologizes (or worse, pays out) to stupid people who intentionally pull a Tienanmen Tank Man in front of a moving formation... seems a bad precedent, and rewarding stupidity.

It's also a bit like "credibility" with the mob: if they don't break knees, why would you pay on time? Because they break knees, you pay on time. Similarly: Brute squads gotta brute.

Equating police to mob enforcers is, I think, the best point of agreement we will reach on this.
@phicyclist @PakkonenCT

@incognitum @phicyclist @PakkonenCT Yes, both claim a monopoly on violence.

And when there isn't a monopoly on violence... there's a competition for it... which is far more violent. (apologies to @guizzy who coined this formulation )

So (some of us) accept that an imperfect (there will not be a perfect) monopoly on violence... is better than a constant competition for it.

I see, thank you for explaining. This makes more sense to me than the Nietzschian theory I thought you were applying.

I can see how competitive violence would be less good than monopoly violence. I'm assuming they're winning customers voluntarily, not competing to own the tax base, so total capacity for violence wouldn't be the axis of competition, rather customer satisfaction (which I imagine would in fact be highly correlated with peaceful outcomes)
@phicyclist @PakkonenCT @guizzy

@incognitum @phicyclist @PakkonenCT @guizzy I think you've hit on something here that we might productively hammer out!

How to define violence in economic-market terms, and how to define the relationship between social order (generic), the individual, and their relationship to the "force and violence" marketplace?

Forgive the clumsy language, but the topic seems pregnant with good conversation!

I'm looking forward to everyone's comments / definitions / criticisms.

@jeremiah @incognitum @phicyclist @guizzy

Here in CT where the town might be too small to afford a locla officer group they put a state trooper in charge.

No sheriffs as no county level govt here.

Where you do have county level govt. you will have to define each market space, state/cnty/local and the level to which they support each other so that you don't have too much duplication except where numbers or capabilities are specifically needed.

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